Curse

draxynnic · Aug 18, 2009, 04:58 AM // 04:58

I suggested a breakpoint at 13 for a reason - that makes it fairly easy for any primary Dervish to take without needing a scythe hood, full scythe mastery investment and/or a major or superior rune. This would mean that if the appropriate action was decided to be to nerf X/Ds rather than buff D/Xs, the number of hits below the breakpoint could be reduced to 2 without overly inconveniencing existing Dervishes.

Having thought on it, you don't really need any breakpoints at lower attributes. Realistically speaking, any level 20 character who uses a scythe is going to have at least 9 in the attribute, and most likely 11 or 12. While I don't think, as Killamus does, that ANet should act to preserve farming builds in their balancing, the only other type of character that's really likely to be affected by a lower breakpoint is the Dervish that hasn't left Istan yet, and that's probably not really fair on the new players.

So... either 2 hits and going to 3 at 13+ Scythe Mastery, or 3 hits and going to 4 at 13+ Scythe Mastery. This could possibly be combined with increases to the 'hit area' linked to either Scythe Mastery or Mysticism to make it easier for primary Dervishes to actually collect the full number of targets into their hit zone.

Quote:

Originally Posted by majikmajikmajik

doesnt whirlwind hit all adject foes?

Not sure how or if this is relevant. Different profession, and an attack skill instead of an innate weapon/attribute property.

reaper with no name · Aug 18, 2009, 05:33 AM // 05:33

Ok, ok, fine.

Dervishes with 13 scythe mastery or higher can hit one additional opponent with a scythe, beyond the normal 3.

Jeez, you people are stubborn.

Tenebrae · Aug 18, 2009, 09:15 AM // 09:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Ok, ok, fine.

Dervishes with 13 scythe mastery or higher can hit one additional opponent with a scythe, beyond the normal 3.

Jeez, you people are stubborn.

And still even if it could be done , wont solve anything .

mathiastemplar · Aug 18, 2009, 09:52 AM // 09:52

no need to solve anything.
Just make the game more fun for the players:P

Arghore · Aug 18, 2009, 01:49 PM // 13:49

Signed for the way Arkantos put it, ak:

atr 0-5 = 1 target
atr 6-11 = 2 targets
atr 12-14 = 3 targets *
atr 15-17 = 4 targets
atr 18-19 = 5 targets
atr 20 = 6 targets

* Meaning a /D could hit 3 targets but at a decent dent to other atributes. altho i wouldnt mind putting the 3target limit at 13, making it a 2 target max for '/D ...

Still, people say this wouldnt solve anything, and personally i think the sollution to a fix would be the curves for the Scyth mastery are build up, meaning they
are to powerfull at 9-12 attributed points.

On the other hand, i like this idear in this setup, as it gives dervishes a EoA effect on their scyth mastery which would give it an other purpose next to, enchanment juggling and bombing at melee range, healing a tad... The more i think of this, perhaps the discussion shouldn't be what needs to be done to fix something, that some say isnt even broken (appart from the /D, outclassing D/ problem, which i just assume to be there, from posts here) ... but to define what a Dervish should be doing, ak what his role should be in a team, and from that come up with what needs to be done to support this role ... 'we' could have this discussion here on the board, but more important would be for A-net to have this discussion, so they can take the appropriate actions to come up with skills to support this defined role(s) ...

From what i understand a dervish to be is a melee range, medium caster; meaning it is build to survive melee range more easily then traditional casters, but at the cost of not being able to cast as powerfull as one, also, being more of a caster it is not meant to deal as much melee damage as true melee classes (war & sin), but instead accomplishes about the same amount of damage through its casts ... or ... does this medium damage to multiple targets, together with bombing ... be it direct damage casts, shadow damage, earth damage, bombing conditions, and doing the same with the use of applying or removing Enchantments from themselves or on/from allies or on/from foes.

I understand that a subrole would be to support the melee classes at melee range by, juggling enchantments (removing or applying them to their allies, or removing/applying them to foes, and also use them to their own benefit) ... i can see them use small, medium heals at melee range to further support melee fighters (relieve healing for casters), and/or heal casters b4 taking over agro from foes attacking those casters ... seeing at melee range conditions are plentyfull, it could also be juggling conditions like it does with enchantments (ak apply them, remove them from allies; toss them back to foes - at the cost of loosing enchantments) ...

Seeing hexes are there also, it might be able to bumb hexes from allies at the cost of loosing enchantments ( QQ - sux being a necro, but it wouldnt be fair to leave this out just so i wont be affected.)

It could do with an Interupting swipe(s), as all melee weapon attributes seem to have such a skill...
It could do with some form of a snare enchantment, so it can protect casters from melee fighters that do pass through the melee front

Im pretty sure that with these roles/subroles there are plenty skills to come up with, some better then others depending on the situation that arises ... and plenty of builds that would be usefull in both PvE and PvP ... Aslong as the damagecurve of these skills is balanced for /D<12>D/ a dervish would be fun to play with, just as any other class out there ?

Targren · Aug 18, 2009, 02:08 PM // 14:08

You won't fix dervishes by nerfing it as a secondary class. All the variations on the "tie scythe targets to X" theme will not change that simple, immutable fact.

This suggestion isn't about fixing dervishes, it's about nerfing farming builds.

/Notsigned

zwei2stein · Aug 18, 2009, 02:43 PM // 14:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Ok, ok, fine.

Dervishes with 13 scythe mastery or higher can hit one additional opponent with a scythe, beyond the normal 3.

Jeez, you people are stubborn.

That would make scythe wars/sins just use +1 att consumable.

"Whenever you critically hit with scythe attack, you have mysticism% chance to strike additional opponent."

Fairly minor bonus that eventually adds up (chance of chance to strike target #4 that might not even be there.). Mysticism investment not required, but actually helpful for damage.

Tenebrae · Aug 18, 2009, 07:18 PM // 19:18

Quote:

Originally Posted by zwei2stein

That would make scythe wars/sins just use +1 att consumable.

"Whenever you critically hit with scythe attack, you have mysticism% chance to strike additional opponent."

Fairly minor bonus that eventually adds up (chance of chance to strike target #4 that might not even be there.). Mysticism investment not required, but actually helpful for damage.

Dont really see it fits "Mysticism" meaning or definition ....

Zahr Dalsk · Aug 18, 2009, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Yeah, but scythe users can do more damage to the targets they do hit. It's not much, but it is the only reason to use scythes.

Actually, their DPS against any one given target still tends to be lower.

The full AoE nature of the MS/DB Assassin just makes the advantage far greater.

Arkantos · Aug 18, 2009, 07:43 PM // 19:43

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

You won't fix dervishes by nerfing it as a secondary class. All the variations on the "tie scythe targets to X" theme will not change that simple, immutable fact.

This suggestion isn't about fixing dervishes, it's about nerfing farming builds.

/Notsigned

It's more of a lazy way of making dervishes somewhat viable.

Targren · Aug 18, 2009, 07:58 PM // 19:58

Quote:

Originally Posted by Arkantos

It's more of a lazy way of making dervishes somewhat viable.

I don't know about that. Requiring more of an investment to achieve the same effect as before is a nerf, at best. A q9 scythe derv now hits up to 3. With this change, that becomes 2, so any build not using 12 scythe has to either take points away from other parts of the build, or add a Sup run.

That's an across-the-board nerf (much like the weapon spells on the recent Rit update. The spirit buff was a buff. The weapon spells, not so much)

reaper with no name · Aug 18, 2009, 08:15 PM // 20:15

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zahr Dalsk

Actually, their DPS against any one given target still tends to be lower.

The full AoE nature of the MS/DB Assassin just makes the advantage far greater.

Actually, I don't think so. I did the math once, comparing an MSDB sin with a scythe dervish, and the MSDB sin came out on top for damage to primary and tertiary (AoE) targets, but the dervish won for secondary (adjacent) targets. I'd do it again to confirm, but I'm too tired right now. Maybe later, when I'm not as sleep-deprived.

EDIT: Ok, curiosity won out over sleep, and I forced myself to do it anyway. If we assume a 33% IAS, the attack rate of an MSDB sin is .89 sec. MS recharges DB, so that means that every .89*2=1.78 sec the MSDB sin will deal 47*2=94 damage to secondary and tertiary targets with 16 dagger mastery (since DB is a dual attack). There's no crits involved here, because it's direct damage, not a hit. So, DPS against secondary and tertiary targets for an MSDB sin is 94/1.78 = 52.81

Now, a dervish with 16 scythe mastery and AoHM.

RD = 25*(1-0.223) + 41*1.41*(0.223) = 32.31663

Dmulti = 1.2*1.15 = 1.38

Against 60 AL (since the numbers for MSDB assume it as well)

AE = 2^((92-60)/40) = 1.741101127

ED = 32.31663*1.38*1.741101127 = 77.64779884

HoF can be kept up 2/3 of the time, so:

DPS = (2/3)*(77.64779884/1.17)+(1/3)*(77.64779884/1.75) = 59.03381695

This is without attack skills or considering the effects of vampiric or sundering mods (which MSDB's AoE cannot benefit from). Nor does it consider the power of wounding strike (that's a +100 damage spike on three enemies at once). The same results also hold at 14 weapon mastery. So, take those numbers for what you will.

Arkantos · Aug 18, 2009, 08:31 PM // 20:31

Quote:

Originally Posted by Targren

I don't know about that. Requiring more of an investment to achieve the same effect as before is a nerf, at best. A q9 scythe derv now hits up to 3. With this change, that becomes 2, so any build not using 12 scythe has to either take points away from other parts of the build, or add a Sup run.

That's an across-the-board nerf (much like the weapon spells on the recent Rit update. The spirit buff was a buff. The weapon spells, not so much)

The thing is, when balancing a game, you balance around what is mostly run. As far as melee goes, the majority of builds are going to be running 14 weapon mastery, so that's what ANet is going to balance it around. They don't balance it around someone who wants to be unique and run 9 weapon mastery.

Chocobo1 · Aug 19, 2009, 02:57 AM // 02:57

I'm looking at this and I don't see how it will fix it. I'm thinking PvP wise, but other classes using a Scythe, such as the Sin generally are only going to hit 2 people at most. 3 is just icing on the cake. And you want to change it so 3 is at about 9 or 12 scythe mastery? Why would secondarys have a problem with that, Warrior and Sin both use 12 scythe mastery in their builds. Even if dervs could get an extra 1 hit, it's not going to make them used. People don't generally ball in fours, and the Derv has so many other problems that keep it from being used.

Unless you're talking about PvE. Then lolpve.

draxynnic · Aug 19, 2009, 05:19 AM // 05:19

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Actually, I don't think so. I did the math once, comparing an MSDB sin with a scythe dervish, and the MSDB sin came out on top for damage to primary and tertiary (AoE) targets, but the dervish won for secondary (adjacent) targets. I'd do it again to confirm, but I'm too tired right now. Maybe later, when I'm not as sleep-deprived.

EDIT: Ok, curiosity won out over sleep, and I forced myself to do it anyway. If we assume a 33% IAS, the attack rate of an MSDB sin is .89 sec. MS recharges DB, so that means that every .89*2=1.78 sec the MSDB sin will deal 47*2=94 damage to secondary and tertiary targets with 16 dagger mastery (since DB is a dual attack). There's no crits involved here, because it's direct damage, not a hit. So, DPS against secondary and tertiary targets for an MSDB sin is 94/1.78 = 52.81

Now, a dervish with 16 scythe mastery and AoHM.

RD = 25*(1-0.223) + 41*1.41*(0.223) = 32.31663

Dmulti = 1.2*1.15 = 1.38

Against 60 AL (since the numbers for MSDB assume it as well)

AE = 2^((92-60)/40) = 1.741101127

ED = 32.31663*1.38*1.741101127 = 77.64779884

HoF can be kept up 2/3 of the time, so:

DPS = (2/3)*(77.64779884/1.17)+(1/3)*(77.64779884/1.75) = 59.03381695

This is without attack skills or considering the effects of vampiric or sundering mods (which MSDB's AoE cannot benefit from). Nor does it consider the power of wounding strike (that's a +100 damage spike on three enemies at once). The same results also hold at 14 weapon mastery. So, take those numbers for what you will.

One thing you seem to have missed in your analysis is that the area damage from DB is armour-ignoring while regular damage from a Dervish isn't, so it might be better to run the numbers for an estimated average AL for hardmode enemies. On the other hand, the MS/DB assassin does need to restart the sequence whenever a target goes down - and I can't tell if you're using attack skills on the Dervish, but if you aren't that'll increase the Dervish's damage against secondary targets.

Also, to repeat: IMO, NO breakpoints below 10 Scythe Mastery. That just punishes low-level Dervishes. Nice linear sequences may look nice, but for the sake of simplicity and minimising collateral damage (especially to new players) I'd just keep it to one breakpoint that's reasonably convenient for Dervish primaries while being non-trivial for Dervishe secondaries to achieve.

reaper with no name · Aug 19, 2009, 05:53 AM // 05:53

Ok, I was unaware that DB's damage was armor-ignoring. That changes things. The MSDB sin does come out on top for damage, unless the dervish starts using attack skills. But there's still WS. And of course, the fact that the dervish doesn't have to restart an attack chain when something dies.

draxynnic · Aug 19, 2009, 05:59 AM // 05:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by reaper with no name

Ok, I was unaware that DB's damage was armor-ignoring. That changes things. The MSDB sin does come out on top for damage, unless the dervish starts using attack skills. But there's still WS. And of course, the fact that the dervish doesn't have to restart an attack chain when something dies.

The general rule of thumb is that any damage from an attack skill is armour-ignoring unless it specifies a damage type, and sometimes even then (the bonus damage from the Paragon lightning-spear skill is armour-ignoring, for instance, it just turns the regular damage into armour-penetrating lightning damage). This is part of the reason why Strength was seen as the worst primary in the game until it got a bunch of good skills in Nightfall.

Pony Slaystation · Aug 19, 2009, 04:19 PM // 16:19

I'd sign this... seems like it could help solve the UWSC problem, since permas often rely on zealous scythes for energy. I probably shouldn't be bringing up UWSC because of all of the QQ threads... I'll shut up now.

Celtus · Aug 19, 2009, 06:14 PM // 18:14

This is ridiculous! So ridiculous that Anet will probably offer you a job. Since what you are REALLY complaining about is the PvE only skills that sway the balance here...change those. instead of completely altering something that doesnt need to be altered. PvE only skills were a horrible idea. Dont expect any balance in pve as long as everyone has god mode skills..and some professions have better ones than others.

reaper with no name · Aug 21, 2009, 04:49 AM // 04:49

The only PvE-only skill involved in making dervishes redundant is AoHM. Changing that to benefit dervishes more than other professions has already been submitted as a suggestion previously.